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Message Board > Fenix / Bennu / Gemix / DIV > DIV is back!... Gemix Studio, the new DIV3

April 24, 2009, 21:02
CicTec
Whiskered
49 posts
Quoting Fiona:
Let me compare it to another piece of software, Wine is a reimplementation of the Win32 and DirectX APIs. Microsoft tolerate it probably because they know there's not a lot that can be done about people reverse engineering their APIs and releasing that for free.
If the Wine team suddenly started charging for it then MS may be having some words with them.
This could happen in the united states of america software licenses exist in Europe no

Quoting Square:
Still the language was devised by someone. Who should get some credit maybe?

And i do not agree. Buying the copyright would make the program legal, in terms of "licensing" the language for a Games Development Suite. Isn't this normal practice? And I do say this because it's true.


No Square, You are a little confused :)

What is the main feature of DIV that sets it apart from other languages?
Programming processes.
This is the "idea" that made a success DIV.
Fenix / Bennu not use the same idea?, Or we could say the same "concept".
Even then they should pay to use it :)
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April 24, 2009, 21:09
Sandman
F3n!x0r
1194 posts

Processes weren't premiered by DIV, other languages existed with similar possibilities.

Also, could you straighten something out for me? You list Daniel Navarro Medrano as an official betatester, but I heard that was bullshit. So which is it? Are you talking crap or is my source bad?
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BennuWiki
Yes, my avatar has grey borders in IE (so get a decent browser)
ROOFLEZ ROOFLEZ
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April 24, 2009, 21:15
CicTec
Whiskered
49 posts
Quoting Sandman:
Processes weren't premiered by DIV, other languages existed with similar possibilities.

Also, could you straighten something out for me? You list Daniel Navarro Medrano as an official betatester, but I heard that was bullshit. So which is it? Are you talking crap or is my source bad?

This thing has to do with the previous discussion?
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April 24, 2009, 21:20
Fiona
games are terrible
-9616558 posts

Quoting CicTec:
Quoting Fiona:
Let me compare it to another piece of software, Wine is a reimplementation of the Win32 and DirectX APIs. Microsoft tolerate it probably because they know there's not a lot that can be done about people reverse engineering their APIs and releasing that for free.
If the Wine team suddenly started charging for it then MS may be having some words with them.
This could happen in the united states of america software licenses exist in Europe no


I don't understand this point. :cry:
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laffo
#
April 24, 2009, 21:21
Fiona
games are terrible
-9616558 posts

Quoting CicTec:
Quoting Sandman:
Processes weren't premiered by DIV, other languages existed with similar possibilities.

Also, could you straighten something out for me? You list Daniel Navarro Medrano as an official betatester, but I heard that was bullshit. So which is it? Are you talking crap or is my source bad?
This thing has to do with the previous discussion?

It has nothing to do with the discussion, but this is the Gemix thread so he was asking another question about Gemix. :)

[Edited on April 24, 2009 by Fiona]
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laffo
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April 24, 2009, 21:43
CicTec
Whiskered
49 posts
Ok then ...

Several years ago a developer of the Gemix Studio team (jedive) met in a computer conference, Daniel Navarro Medrano, at the end of the conference he spoke to Daniel that we were developing a program called Gemix Studio which was the successor of the DIV, Daniel very surprised and happy for the news has left us his personal contact email asking to be informed about the program in order to try and test, so we have included in the list of official betatesters.

Fiona,

I make a simple example ...

A person has an idea, he implements this idea and the patent, so he has a monopoly and no one can create something of equal or similar

DIV is a language not patented, so it can be created in the same or similar.

In other words, you can take for example Fenix / Bennu, see how it works, create an implementation 100% the same, improve, and sell it, but to do anything you do not have to use the original source code, otherwise violates the copyright, and your program becomes illegal.

[Edited on April 24, 2009 by CicTec]
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April 24, 2009, 22:15
DTM
Earthling!
821 posts

Quoting Square:
Still the language was devised by someone. Who should get some credit maybe?


and wasn't it based on ideas from previous languages??

and following that logic, would you not consider Fenix/Bennu immoral?? Someone taking the hard work of the original DIV creator and releasing it for *free*.... Except the hard work is in the implementation.
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:o
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April 24, 2009, 23:10
Fiona
games are terrible
-9616558 posts

Quoting DTM:
Quoting Square:
Still the language was devised by someone. Who should get some credit maybe?

and wasn't it based on ideas from previous languages??

and following that logic, would you not consider Fenix/Bennu immoral?? Someone taking the hard work of the original DIV creator and releasing it for *free*.... Except the hard work is in the implementation.


That's a bit different from charging for it.
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laffo
#
April 24, 2009, 23:24
Mezzmer
Square-theorist
792 posts

Yes, and that's fine isn't it? I am sure DIV was inspired by other languages.

Quoting DTM:
and following that logic, would you not consider Fenix/Bennu immoral??


No?

DTM the difference is Gemix "creators" wish to sell their product commercially. Fenix/Bennu is open-source.

And a last questionfor you CicTec.. if Gemix is backward compatible with DIV2 then surely the language is identical??

Or if not, what are the differences then? I challenge you to answer!
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April 24, 2009, 23:25
Mezzmer
Square-theorist
792 posts

Wow you posted before me Fiona!
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April 24, 2009, 23:29
Mezzmer
Square-theorist
792 posts

Quoting DTM:
Someone taking the hard work of the original DIV creator and releasing it for *free*


Yes but that happens in the computing industry because it was to preserve DIV as a usable language as well to improve on it.

I mean, what is actually wrong with releasing something for free? It happens when things expire, such as DIV Games Studio did when it was trapped in Windows 98.
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April 24, 2009, 23:37
CicTec
Whiskered
49 posts
Quoting Square:
And a last questionfor you CicTec.. if Gemix is backward compatible with DIV2 then surely the language is identical??

Or if not, what are the differences then? I challenge you to answer!

I can answer without any problems, but what has this logical question, belonging to be arrogant and provocative?
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April 24, 2009, 23:38
Mezzmer
Square-theorist
792 posts

No, please answer. I was referring to your avoidance of this question.. and the current discussion provokes it, not i!
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April 24, 2009, 23:51
CicTec
Whiskered
49 posts
Gemix is 100% compatible with div2, except 2 cases:

1) if for example the code of a function div2 contained a bug and works differently from how it works in Gemix, in this case it is not possible to provide a compatibility to something that does not work very well.
2) If an old program div2 contains some global variable name (for example alpha) that is now a local variable in Gemix, the program does not compile, but in this case is not possible to provide a compatibility.

Except these 2 particular cases is fully compatible.
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April 24, 2009, 23:53
Mezzmer
Square-theorist
792 posts

Therefore the language is basically identical, but extended on slightly. Thank you.

[Edited on April 24, 2009 by Mezzmer]
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April 25, 2009, 00:04
CicTec
Whiskered
49 posts
to be 100% compatible, must be identical, otherwise it is a variant.
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April 25, 2009, 00:23
Mezzmer
Square-theorist
792 posts

Then why did you earlier say it's the "idea" that you want to use??

Are you not twisting words to make the basis for Gemix sound better?

[Edited on April 25, 2009 by Mezzmer]
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April 25, 2009, 00:24
DTM
Earthling!
821 posts

>> I mean, what is actually wrong with releasing something for free?

Gemix isn't any more "stealing" than Fenix is, surely... I don't think being GPL makes Fenix any more morally right.

And since you are agreeing that DIV was inspired by other languages, I can't see what the problem with Gemix is. If Fenix/Bennu is so much better for being open source, then people will use that... Fine! I don't see a reason to get up in arms about Gemix. Both have been built from scratch presumably with a lot of hard work put into them.
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:o
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April 25, 2009, 00:27
Mezzmer
Square-theorist
792 posts

Yes but if someone sells another person's work, DTM, that is basically stealing! This is not far off that?

And what makes the whole thing even more immoral is that Fenix/Bennu are alternatives that are actually free.

I don't understand your point.

edit:

DIV was a very original language. Or it wouldn't have made an impact.

Can we agree on that?

Gemix is basically DIV2 as stated above. Why are you arguing the point that is can be sold?

[Edited on April 25, 2009 by Mezzmer]
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April 25, 2009, 00:49
DTM
Earthling!
821 posts

and if someone gives away another person's work, is that not also basically stealing?

I don't see that the existance of Fenix or Bennu should have any affect on what software anyone else wants to make and charge for. Maybe if they were cloning the Bennu language with whatever enhancements it has. But they aren't. They're rebooting a commercial product that even fenix/bennu has diverged from.

My point is: The more software the merrier, open or closed source. I want the software that makes game making easiest. It being open source is of course a great bonus. But I'll happily pay for something if it is better. And maybe commercial is the only way to fund a DIV-like environment, I have yet to see anything like DIV for free.

>DIV was a very original language. Or it wouldn't have made an impact.
It was nice... But things using Basic also sold. I would argue that the more important thing was the Studio/IDE environment, which is hopefully what Gemix will address.

[Edited on April 25, 2009 by DTM]
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:o
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April 25, 2009, 01:05
Sandman
F3n!x0r
1194 posts

Quoting CicTec:
Several years ago a developer of the Gemix Studio team (jedive) met in a computer conference, Daniel Navarro Medrano, at the end of the conference he spoke to Daniel that we were developing a program called Gemix Studio which was the successor of the DIV, Daniel very surprised and happy for the news has left us his personal contact email asking to be informed about the program in order to try and test, so we have included in the list of official betatesters.
So he hasn't actually tested anything? Funny how that turned out.

The legal problems Fenix had years ago were mainly down to the file formats (map, fpg, etc), iirc.

Quoting DTM:
My point is: The more software the merrier, open or closed source. I want the software that makes game making easiest. It being open source is of course a great bonus. But I'll happily pay for something if it is better. And maybe commercial is the only way to fund a DIV-like environment, I have yet to see anything like DIV for free.

Actually I don't like this all-in-one IDE stuff, it limits me in getting the most awesome tools I want to use. I'd love to write some intellisense for an IDE for Bennu; I actually started something like it once, but it's nothing more than a parser currently.
I don't mind much that it's closed-source, I mind that it runs on Windows only, which makes it completely useless to me. Of course it's too bad it's not open-source, because the current software renderer of Gemix isn't slow at all and I know a few people who would like a look at it. ;) But hey, there are plenty of good 3rd party software renderers.
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BennuWiki
Yes, my avatar has grey borders in IE (so get a decent browser)
ROOFLEZ ROOFLEZ
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April 25, 2009, 01:13
CicTec
Whiskered
49 posts
Quoting Sandman:
So he hasn't actually tested anything? Funny how that turned out.

Of course they tried and tested, also gave his impressions and some suggestions.
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April 25, 2009, 01:20
Mezzmer
Square-theorist
792 posts

I'm surprised he isn't getting any involvement or indeed some kind of credit. Hm.
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April 25, 2009, 01:22
Sandman
F3n!x0r
1194 posts

You can't expect Daniel to mess with this project, he's got work and a life.
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BennuWiki
Yes, my avatar has grey borders in IE (so get a decent browser)
ROOFLEZ ROOFLEZ
#
April 25, 2009, 01:31
CicTec
Whiskered
49 posts
Quoting Sandman:
You can't expect Daniel to mess with this project, he's got work and a life.

Yes, he said he no longer wished to develop DIV, given the many problems that Hammer gave him during the development of DIV2, but still very happy that people have not forgotten DIV after all these years.
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Message Board > Fenix / Bennu / Gemix / DIV > DIV is back!... Gemix Studio, the new DIV3

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